Capitol District (NWC 10th & Capitol)
Moderators: Coyote, nebugeater, Brad, Omaha Cowboy, BRoss
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
It's hard to speculate on exactly what would have or not have happened....but these are my thoughts:
1. ConAgra probably would have moved their HQ out of Omaha, had their demand not been met, especially after they were encouraged and decided to stay downtown. Omaha would've survived without them, at a cost of many lost jobs.
2. The Old Market, which started developing into its current state in the 70s, would have continued spreading into Jobbers buildings with restaurants, lofts, offices, etc. as the warehousing type businesses turned their focus toward trucking facilities and away from railroads.
3. Marina City might have been built as an extension of the Gene Lahey Mall down toward the river east of Jobbers, as part of the "Back To The River" movement.
4. Development north of Marina City would have happened naturally along the river front, along with cleaning up the superfund sites of Asarco, and the UP Yards, creating a perfect site for a new convention center and maybe even a new stadium for the CWS, spurring further growth in north downtown and Creighton to the west.
Doesn't sound too much different than today, other than we would have still 20+ great, very substantial 1880-1920 era buildings along with their history/ heritage still intact. ConAgra could have even been one of the main anchor tenants occupying some of the space. But we'll never get the chance to see how great it could have been. There's no doubt in my mind we would have a better downtown today with Jobbers still intact, with or without ConAgra.
1. ConAgra probably would have moved their HQ out of Omaha, had their demand not been met, especially after they were encouraged and decided to stay downtown. Omaha would've survived without them, at a cost of many lost jobs.
2. The Old Market, which started developing into its current state in the 70s, would have continued spreading into Jobbers buildings with restaurants, lofts, offices, etc. as the warehousing type businesses turned their focus toward trucking facilities and away from railroads.
3. Marina City might have been built as an extension of the Gene Lahey Mall down toward the river east of Jobbers, as part of the "Back To The River" movement.
4. Development north of Marina City would have happened naturally along the river front, along with cleaning up the superfund sites of Asarco, and the UP Yards, creating a perfect site for a new convention center and maybe even a new stadium for the CWS, spurring further growth in north downtown and Creighton to the west.
Doesn't sound too much different than today, other than we would have still 20+ great, very substantial 1880-1920 era buildings along with their history/ heritage still intact. ConAgra could have even been one of the main anchor tenants occupying some of the space. But we'll never get the chance to see how great it could have been. There's no doubt in my mind we would have a better downtown today with Jobbers still intact, with or without ConAgra.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
...and then they were gone.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
This tangential dialogue is agonizing, updates in the shamrock thread come on your killing me smells.
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
The saddest part is, if you overlay an areal image of Jobbers Canyon over what's there today, 80% of the area today is occupied by green space and the rest is STILL occupied with "ugly red brick buildings". What a total waste. I completely agree that Omaha with Jobbers Canyon would be a million times better than Omaha with ConAgra. We might have lost ConAgra jobs, but we would have made that up with hotel, restraunt, and retail jobs in JC, plus all the additional jobs associated with additional development that would have likely occurred next to what would have been a much larger entertainment district. Omaha ceased to be Omaha in 1989 because of ONE guy. But hey, we got a nice bird dropping covered walking path around an under-maintained and smelly trash filled lagoon with a "pavilion" containing a display case showcasing historic Omaha facts and photos that you can't read right now because it's been completely covered in graffiti.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
ConAgra jobs > hotel, restaurant and retail jobsmr. omaha wrote:The saddest part is, if you overlay an areal image of Jobbers Canyon over what's there today, 80% of the area today is occupied by green space and the rest is STILL occupied with "ugly red brick buildings". What a total waste. I completely agree that Omaha with Jobbers Canyon would be a million times better than Omaha with ConAgra. We might have lost ConAgra jobs, but we would have made that up with hotel, restraunt, and retail jobs in JC, plus all the additional jobs associated with additional development that would have likely occurred next to what would have been a much larger entertainment district. Omaha ceased to be Omaha in 1989 because of ONE guy. But hey, we got a nice bird dropping covered walking path around an under-maintained and smelly trash filled lagoon with a "pavilion" containing a display case showcasing historic Omaha facts and photos that you can't read right now because it's been completely covered in graffiti.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Jobbers Canyon ugly red brick buildings > ConAgra ugly red brick buildings.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
We'll never know for sure but let's not forget Omaha was at a real tipping point having just lost Internorth. Losing ConAgra too could have severely damaged Omaha's economy and psyche. A fear held by many was that losing a second big economic player could have given Omaha a negative momentum and reputation. Others may have followed ConAgra if it left. We can'tvreally know what the full impact of ConAgra staying has been. I would suggest it may be far greater than the addition of the office campus and park and the loss of Jobbers Canyon. If it had left, its impact may have been far greater than the loss of it's well paying jobs and the future development of Jobbers Canyon. But here we are today moving on nonetheless.
My son got a 27 on his ACT. No this score is not as high as what Jeff's son achieved. But one has to remember the paternal gene-pool my son has to overcome. On a PGPAB [Paternal Gene-Pool Adjusted Basis], my son's score is a 37 and Jeff's son's PGPAB ACT score is 19.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
The sad thing is we could have kept both, not just one or the other. There was a lack of vision and a persistent stubbornness combined with a sense of urgency that kept it from happening.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
...and then they were gone.
-
- Planning Board
- Posts: 2736
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
It wasn't just Jobbers Canyon. There was an abandoned battery plant where the Heartland of America Park is. That end of town was a ghost town and extremely dangerous at night. Many Jobbers Canyon buildings were empty and for sale for years, not to mention being in hazardous condition. Yes, it is theoretically possible that Jobbers Canyon could have been saved but not one soul stepped up with money to do it. Let's remember that the Old Market was developed because of ONE person.
Vision is nice but cash is king. Bring a person with vision and cash or the ability to get the job done and you get things done. Bring a person with vision and no money and you get a dreamer.
I maintain that the largest reason for the CLink is Hal Daub. He had the vision, the drive, the resources and the contacts. None of that was visible with Jobbers Canyon.
Vision is nice but cash is king. Bring a person with vision and cash or the ability to get the job done and you get things done. Bring a person with vision and no money and you get a dreamer.
I maintain that the largest reason for the CLink is Hal Daub. He had the vision, the drive, the resources and the contacts. None of that was visible with Jobbers Canyon.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
That's my feeling about the whole thing. Many of those buildings were also burned out partially and dilapidated. While it may be an inefficient use of urban space, Con Agra let their campus open to the public and created a green space many people enjoy nearly year round.NovakOmaha wrote:It wasn't just Jobbers Canyon. There was an abandoned battery plant where the Heartland of America Park is. That end of town was a ghost town and extremely dangerous at night. Many Jobbers Canyon buildings were empty and for sale for years, not to mention being in hazardous condition. Yes, it is theoretically possible that Jobbers Canyon could have been saved but not one soul stepped up with money to do it. Let's remember that the Old Market was developed because of ONE person.
Vision is nice but cash is king. Bring a person with vision and cash or the ability to get the job done and you get things done. Bring a person with vision and no money and you get a dreamer.
I maintain that the largest reason for the CLink is Hal Daub. He had the vision, the drive, the resources and the contacts. None of that was visible with Jobbers Canyon.
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.
The Bride
The Bride
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Which buildings were burned out? I have over 500 photos of those buildings, inside and out, from right before they were torn down, and they all looked in fantastic shape. I agree with CLink and Hal Daub. The dude had vision. Remember, if he would have beat Fahey we'd have a 30 story hotel across the street from it, and for those who think the ballpark wouldn't have happened without Fahey, it would have, and it would be on 16th and Cuming as originally planned, and that whole area from MECA's concrete playground to the stadium would probably be developed because people would be walking those blocks from their parking spots to the stadium, instead of walking right to the gate.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
It's just a myth to say the Jobbers buildings were burned-out or too dilapidated to be re-purposed into lofts, offices, restaurants, etc. There are many examples of similar buildings in and around the Old Martket, that have been redeveloped since the mid 90s, many which were in worse shape, such as P.E. Eiler, Antequarium, etc. Just look around at all the great buildings that have been saved and rehabbed since Jobbers disappeared.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
...and then they were gone.
-
- Planning Board
- Posts: 2959
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:48 pm
- Location: Beyond Thunderdome
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Sooo... How about that Shamrock Development?
Well, I suppose since that isn't happening... Back to Jobbers Canyon talk, my bad.
Well, I suppose since that isn't happening... Back to Jobbers Canyon talk, my bad.
No posts exist for this topic
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Yeah, we should get back on topic. But the jobbers detour proves sometimes it would be better if nothing had happened, in that case at least.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
...and then they were gone.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Speaking of nothing happening........
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Yeah looks like cdub and everyone else's sources were full of it. And you guys had me convinced, shame on you.
Last edited by MTO on Mon May 04, 2015 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
The lack of activity here is brutal. Every time we get told of a date it comes and goes. I know, it's very complicated. To me this is the most critical possible development in town right now.
Greg
Greg
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
GetUrban wrote:Heard from a party directly involved...It's getting very close...you might see some action yet this week.
...hope he's right!
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Nearly three years complicated, nothing is that complicated. Maybe it's so complicated it isn't. As is not happening. Oh then there's the signing docs excuse, how long does it take to sign off? How about a rubber stamp wouldn't want them to get hand cramps.
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Do you camp out down there to capture all these glamour shots of the parking lot?
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.
The Bride
The Bride
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Too rainy this week. ;-)
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
...and then they were gone.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Maybe it's time for a little pressure on our local politicians?? I have seen nothing stated publically by any Omaha official.
-
- Planning Board
- Posts: 2959
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:48 pm
- Location: Beyond Thunderdome
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Agreed completely.Greg S wrote:The lack of activity here is brutal. Every time we get told of a date it comes and goes. I know, it's very complicated. To me this is the most critical possible development in town right now.
Greg
...Maybe it's that Omaha just isn't ready for these kinds of one shot huge private projects? I still believe that smaller single projects (like a single apartment building, mixed use building, etc.) will be the only hope for North Downtown.
No posts exist for this topic
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Perhaps if I'm trying to pull some positive from this failure, there should be more juice behind tetrad. And we all know how much it takes to get one of these done.
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Its almost like you are rooting against this project? Do you have something against shamrock?MTO wrote:Perhaps if I'm trying to pull some positive from this failure, there should be more juice behind tetrad. And we all know how much it takes to get one of these done.
Think you are 100% completely wrong and that this project will be moving forward.
Omaha Skyline Photos, Omaha Aerial Photos, and More.
Website: www.bradwilliamsphotography.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/bradwilliamsphotography
Twitter: www.twitter.com/bradwphoto
Instagram: www.instagram.com/bradwilliamsphotography
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@bradwilliamsphoto
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
You have to accept that many on the forum are quite sceptitcal of this project because of how its played out over the last few years. After all the fanfare about it and then all the problem they have had with funding it's fully understandable. I believe it will get done, but I've STILL heard it will be scaled back. Someone mentioned that the hotel will be 300+ still, but with changes to its exterior finishes. Either way, it sounds like it gets gone but not as grandiose as they sold to everyone as.I personally have much more confidence in Tetrad and what they have proposed.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Scaled back in esthetics but not height correct?
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
The person who I know (not a Shamrock employee) told me scaled back in size ( Fewer hotel rooms, office space and residence) due to lack of solid financing. His info was from earlier this year when the financing did not look good. Since then someone posted something about EB-5 financing. Geturban said he talked to someone who is directly involved with it and said 300-350 room hotel with changes to the exterior materials and "not to worry". I'm sure (I,hope) his source has better and more current intel than mine.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
As long as they don't reduce the height.
And if the project was optimized smaller do to their inability to pull off what they promised and had broken ground for...... Will we have to wait another three years for another groundbreaking. As in will they have to go through the entire process over again?
And if the project was optimized smaller do to their inability to pull off what they promised and had broken ground for...... Will we have to wait another three years for another groundbreaking. As in will they have to go through the entire process over again?
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
They have building permits approved. If they changed anything it almost assuredly would have been before they got through that process.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Does that mean since the building permit were approved its public record and that someone here who knows how to find it can post it there?
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Go to:MSizlack wrote:Does that mean since the building permit were approved its public record and that someone here who knows how to find it can post it there?
https://www.omahapermits.com//permitinfo/
search for permit # BLD-14-06852
Expand all of the little arrows for status.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
...and then they were gone.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
When I hear scaled back materials with height, all I can picture is another terrible suburban looking Hyatt Place. Is that the best this city can do? Omaha has undeniably become a town that no longer cares about architectural aesthetics and context within the urban setting. Lincoln's hotels fit so well within the look of the Haymarket. Ours look cheap and haphazard. If we are going to change our skyline for the next 50-100 years we can't just settle, but that seems to be exactly what will continue to happen. The leaders and planners of this town truly have no clue what they are doing in this regard.
-
- Home Owners Association
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:25 pm
- Location: Council Bluffs, IA
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
From what the info on the permit number came up with, so far it would seem the only thing approved is the "shell" of the hotel and that it was approved last year. Also what do they consider "shell"?
-
- Planning Board
- Posts: 2736
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
I went to a conference in Lincoln and had some time between sessions. The Haymarket District and the arena are amazing. The execution of the development should be required study for every city planner. What an amazing place. The great thing is that it seamlessly ties in with the rest of downtown. Granted the area can't really be compared with Omaha as the CLink has the convention center as well but time spent in Lincoln shows how North Downtown in Omaha is an utter failure. The hotels on Cuming are awful looking, suburban looking places. The Haymarket District is a true destination and is a tribute to every stakeholder. Compare it to the area around the Des Moines Iowa Event Center and it really shows the difference between "Just build it and we'll worry about the rest later" and "Let's plan this all out and do it right the first time".
Extremely impressive.
Now back to Shamrock. IF it does get built out it will add significantly to Omaha's entertainment district, which I combine the Old Market, downtown and North Downtown.
Extremely impressive.
Now back to Shamrock. IF it does get built out it will add significantly to Omaha's entertainment district, which I combine the Old Market, downtown and North Downtown.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
So if it has been scaled back then what's the hold up? Not a word from shamrock and not a word from local media over the inaction. Also they should remove that coming soon sign before the CWS, Shamrock deserves the shame not the rest of us.
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Maybe everything on this topic should be moved to the "rumors" post since no one has any solid information.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Accept it.. "projects never built" section.
15-17, 26, 32
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
I see your trolling skills haven't improved much.MTO wrote:Accept it.. "projects never built" section.
Re: Official: Shamrock Development (10th and Capitol)
Akzeptieren Sie es... "Projekte, die nie gebaut" Abschnitt.
15-17, 26, 32